[Craic] THOMAS FRANK.. Has American Liberalism Abandoned Free Speech? Interview With Thomas Frank
MARTO HOARY
hoary at ieee.org
Wed Mar 31 12:58:15 PST 2021
Gentlemen, we may be joined by joined by Alan Donovan this morning. Alan is
retired President of Oneonta University.
Marto
On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 08:39 Rob Anderson via craic <
craic at lists.integralshift.ca> wrote:
>
> Gentlemen,
>
> Should we have some controversial discussion?
>
> Thomas Frank, still one of my North Star political commentators.
> Recently, he got himself into a sea of troubles with his piece in The
> Guardian, entitled
> “Liberals want to blame right-wing ‘misinformation’ for their problems.
> Get real.” For his thoughts, he got back a great big “Fuck you, Frank!”
> My concern here is falling into the same trap that always threatens
> progressive movements...get them to divide into silos of cultural
> recrimination so that they can be conquered by the power brokers in pursuit
> of more bank vaults of wealth.
>
> My Proposed Topic for Discussion & Debate:
>
> Liberal and increasingly intolerant cultural progressivists relying on
> blaming a lengthy list of oppressors with an increasingly lengthy list of
> shaming terms...colonialist, sexist, racist, transphobic, discriminatory
> gaslighter... to the detriment of fighting in the trenches the economic
> wars of stark inequality has won the Democrats an affluent base in the
> suburbs and the coastal cities but cost them their now thoroughly alienated
> blue collar base which Hilary so easily termed the “deplorables. Big
> trouble lies ahead!
>
> Bob
>
> In 2004, *What’s the Matter With Kansas? *offered an explanation that was
> soothing, on its face. The core thesis was that cultural issues replaced
> economics as the primary driver of decision-making in the heartland, and
> Republicans were winning by appeals to evangelical Christianity, racism,
> and other passions. This explanation was alluring to a lot of Democrats at
> the time, among other things because it absolved the party of blame for
> losing influence.
>
> Few, however, remembered the end of the book, which warned of a negative
> trajectory within the Democratic Party. While Republicans “were
> industriously fabricating their own class-based language of the right” and
> “made their populist appeal to blue-collar voters,” Democrats were “giving
> those same voters—their traditional base—the big brush-off.”
>
> This warning — that becoming the party of “affluent, white-collar
> professionals who are liberal on social issues” would ultimately backfire —
> proved prophetic, not that it did Frank any good
>
> The celebrated author writes an article in the Guardian opposing
> censorship, and is stunned by the negative response from political kindred
> spirits
>
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVksmu4jAQRb-G7ECeMi2yQAzdIMjT60ZMm8iOi8SN40SJI0i-vg2snmS7pNKtQfc45xaKuh2Spu6s93oyOzSQGHh0GqyF1us7aDMlExxTn8Zh6MmESRz5kae67NYCVFzpxLY9eE0vtMq5VbV5VyBGvDIJQyQExpEIAiIpjmKE-Q0JSf0wDCFGn7G8lwpMDklt9PDu6-mktLbpJnQ-IWt3LFdCqFnXi87y_D7L68plG3dL3k15Ba0bbqZaCWi5Vl015YIbWRuQUxmSCV3b-g5mQpcwbHFOjsOZ6PvmX_38OuzxfrzTdHio_Fc8ynXcXBebYD9-4_RwQftl0W0qXcpX7nB5puMKpcv7sHd6fk5H10Plv49qd1g90uVG7RbbUZ426kttH4KmaHfe6sspRfwU9xuDZsfrVawu6VPTspE2P_8hy8ez_uvz4xyC06KYnx9HElSa0G9PJQQRjChFhPiM4RmehUSSKIq5LzDizkcWS8EZvTEQLMb-bcJQVZAfRnltUvF2AK1GLsCWzhdou9pQpy1eBN8iBzBzseqNskMGhgsN8sPWfr7Im3ZWgHEWW5AZtwkOcIgZi4lbJPzAdPAp8_2AochzW8jaVZnkw-8_-q7SqQ>
> Has American Liberalism Abandoned Free Speech? Interview With Thomas Frank
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVksmu4jAQRb-G7ECeMi2yQAzdIMjT60ZMm8iOi8SN40SJI0i-vg2snmS7pNKtQfc45xaKuh2Spu6s93oyOzSQGHh0GqyF1us7aDMlExxTn8Zh6MmESRz5kae67NYCVFzpxLY9eE0vtMq5VbV5VyBGvDIJQyQExpEIAiIpjmKE-Q0JSf0wDCFGn7G8lwpMDklt9PDu6-mktLbpJnQ-IWt3LFdCqFnXi87y_D7L68plG3dL3k15Ba0bbqZaCWi5Vl015YIbWRuQUxmSCV3b-g5mQpcwbHFOjsOZ6PvmX_38OuzxfrzTdHio_Fc8ynXcXBebYD9-4_RwQftl0W0qXcpX7nB5puMKpcv7sHd6fk5H10Plv49qd1g90uVG7RbbUZ426kttH4KmaHfe6sspRfwU9xuDZsfrVawu6VPTspE2P_8hy8ez_uvz4xyC06KYnx9HElSa0G9PJQQRjChFhPiM4RmehUSSKIq5LzDizkcWS8EZvTEQLMb-bcJQVZAfRnltUvF2AK1GLsCWzhdou9pQpy1eBN8iBzBzseqNskMGhgsN8sPWfr7Im3ZWgHEWW5AZtwkOcIgZi4lbJPzAdPAp8_2AochzW8jaVZnkw-8_-q7SqQ>The
> celebrated author writes an article in the Guardian opposing censorship,
> and is stunned by the negative response from political kindred spirits
> Matt Taibbi
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVkE2OhCAQhU_T7Nrwq7Jg0Zu5hgEpbTIIBspMnNMPratJSEEqr6j3vtkirLmcZs8VyadMeO5gEvzUCIhQyFGhTMEbpoUSehiIN9KzUY0k1GkpAJsN0WA5gOyHi2G2GHK6Jqjk5G2010pqyXo994vzdOaCLbTn4IaeeervtfbwAdIMJqd4Xv-SaN6Ie32I14N_tYM2OBe6eriKdv7u5ry17g55j9AevBdUiedmEZ-3lATDKWdUCMq5kpJ1rBu45-OorXKMWi-aM--sFIsEJzVTy0PSbeX_lpBiNltOiOHXOsC3TR5KzUk07fpJf4la-Knd25ECnhMk6yL4mwveeC9S0woJSsPuJ4uG9WxgUmrejAw3iAZOSKV6SUfSXPjcppK5A_0BuVKP0g> Mar
> 30
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVUk2Pm0AM_TXh1mi--DpwWGWbLGkhShWV7F7QMOOQSWCgw9CU_PoOSXtYybIly35-tp_gFurOTEnfDdabXWmnHhINt6EBa8F44wCmVDLBMfVpHIaeTJjEkR95aihPBqDlqkmsGcHrx6pRglvV6UcHYsQ7J1KefD8mmLGTjDghEatEDJHvVygIJZDnWD5KBVpA0ulmeuB6TXK2th8W9GVB1s4sV1WllsNYDZaL61J0rcvyXjn_Gzs3A7nwYPTFABczkwVd2-4KLr7CtMWC_JyOpLmml-7P7pDh7H6l-XRTYhPf5TruP1ZpkN33OD-8o-y1HlK9bd6LHPEiHl2PYj25puqmeLFGM0Z--Uqzwx7tDun9-2rbC5qpndreZJHa7PCCMpU6jBy_qzT4hKXRMl8VvDWFqDdvP65tPX1U3TnUU_Cmj7-O-UZcUvStPg5in90WJBhtWw7daAS4Vf4f4V--BanGdl5x3t1TCUEEI0oRIT5jeImXIZEkimLuVxhxSX0Wy4ozemJQsRj7pwVDbU0-HdczScvNBI268wrsmWsJZug0dbX1POdR5J5eutiOWtmpBM2rBuRTD_YpqwensgYNxslNltwmOMChE0RMHJHwKQAnGMp8P2Ao8hwL2bkunTx__hfYqOVK>
>
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVUsuu3CAM_ZrJLlF4DbBgcVWpvxEZcDLoJpAC6W3u15dJuqmEbGN87CMfHFRcUj7Nnkrt3maq544m4ldZsVbM3VEwT8EboplgWsrOG-6JEqoLZZoz4gZhNTUf2O2HXYODGlK8ECOn3ctoiU-YR0kce1qO4LmbhdAKJPNupvIeC4cPGB2aFNfz6tut5lXrXh7s40F_tuN8HMphSwX3Obi0tVTYYMHmZ6zu9fatT00P-uPXHbCPJSXf7vM67TktGUsJv7HlS0XcG-IeQcV7iHiPacYe7hPbe-5xFNY6xXsLwHrOJPZaENWDt4xalFIrPhQ2wAbfKcJXuXm1HvcurvAiWa5QSMmV0LpvPaHn6Eiv5pn1oMTMmXaUzXwi6sn-EMr1sMelC4aOlIyMjZQKzslABkk9VUqDsGQEzwTX3gJvULRcEzE_-Lgt9L9dddlskE9cwzdYrC-IHnNJkbXa5a3gVdRIT81vRwz1nDCCXdHf2tb7i1xqTwtGzO3r-AmqIU8iCeeaNiL_xGziMy7Ek4-qayx8aqhoKgRrw1_KS8uW>
>
> Writer Thomas Frank published a piece in *The Guardian *last week called,
> “Liberals want to blame rightwing 'misinformation' for our problems. Get
> real
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkc2OhCAQhJ9muK3hd5QDh73sa5hGepQs4gTaGPfpF52EFIFU0ZWPCQjnrZzuvVVil4x0vtFlPGpCIixsr1jGGJywyijb9yw4HcRgBhbr-CqIK8TkqOzI3rtPcQKKW74TXEu2NDfwJw_QT8IabaUVvQGwvZJm0M9BfMbCHiLmCd2W03m_y5JbiN71ob4f8qet4zg6WnDeoYQIuZu2td02XTFTrFemnSWXom0rlKbCNilxXuiIef5aY435tZX17viVoscCqbLorhRXiktptBad6HoZ5DBYMF5wCKoVDx60emn02grzemi-zrKru68E0-9VhhXXpp6Y4h94pAVywFK3rJp3vijdpgZpvDrvOdI5YgafMHz40ecbbqLjjLmVIwwjkBNP0Qvd4LUi_QdYA6y0MU_NB9ZahK2lsiOI3sd_DeWeKg>.”
> Its basic argument was that rather than look inward for reasons the
> Democratic Party message isn’t succeeding, and why political extremism is
> on the rise, Democrats have instead opted for a strategy of “shushing the
> world.”
>
> Frank addressed the “clampdown mania” of the Internet era, expressing
> puzzlement over a change in how Democrats look at the speech issue now,
> versus how traditional liberals almost unanimously viewed the issue in the
> not-so-distant-past.
>
> “Criticism, analysis, mockery, and protest: these were our weapons,” he
> wrote. “Censorship and blacklisting were, with important exceptions, the
> weapons of the puritanical right.”
>
> To say the piece didn’t go over as he expected is an understatement.
> Although some liked it, he was stunned by the reaction from people he once
> considered political allies. “People were like, ‘*Fuck you, Frank!’” *he
> says, half-laughing.
>
> Not long ago, Frank might have been American liberalism’s favorite writer.
> As detailed last summer’s review of *The People, No!
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVkMtuhSAQhp_msNNwPeqCRTd9DTPAqKQIBjCNffpyjt00mUsymdv_Wai4pnzpI5VKXmGu14E64ncJWCtmchbMs3eaTUKJaRiI09KxUY3El3nJiDv4oGs-kRynCd5C9Sm-J6jkZNM4sPFJHWNiscbYAQW3Ug7cjpQLCsN9Fk7nMVrUKYbrvZcEvdV6lIf4ePDPZhW8Mb4vpykV7Fdv096qR_MviAVKV7Z0BtetqVs6XwuGhXjNKWdUCMq5kpL1rB-44-M4gTKMghNKTs6AFItEIyemloek-8r_nSFZ75AvDP4HDNYNosNcUhStd33pfzc1-XPL-xl9vWaMYAK6m0y9Ab9ZzStGzA28m6Fq9mQDk3Li7ZE_FA2dkEo9JR1J-8KlNhX1rf4XvuyRgg>,
> *he became a pop-culture sensation with his 2004 book, *What’s the Matter
> With Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkU1rxCAQhn_NetvgZz4OHpZCL6Xn9hbGONmVJhrUbMj--posDCPIO87D4wAZ7yHuegkpk6P1eV9Qe9zShDljJGvC2DurWSeU6JqGWC0ta1VLXOrHiDiDm3SOK5JlNZMbILvgzwkqOXlo0VJjxloA1m3Nh1GUQtEpaTvLODXvtbBah35AHfy0n--SST9yXtJF3C78s9S2bRXM8Aq-GsJcLn4ekNP1Gw7O6xf4BOn6EXwBfhaIJ6brbcZYiErWLqXRliraNI38JU5zyhkVgnKupGQVqxpuedt2oAyjYIWSnTUgxSjRyI6p8SLpfOdVWk3KMPwdECTqGeKOk3uBwfwAbzGm4EXJ3g8xZ6h46cs5r97lvUcPZkL7Vpbf5k-J_R09xvIjtoesWc0aJmXHC0jzdlScCqlULWlLCoUNZcrrDM4Y9w9jRJli>.
> *That book came outat a time when American liberalism was first beginning
> to grapple with a new phenomenon: a loss of status as the typical political
> theology of an ordinary working-class person.
>
> “There was a time when liberalism was the dominant tradition in America,”
> he says. “Democrats always controlled the House of Representatives. And
> they couldn’t figure out what happened to them.”
>
> In 2004, *What’s the Matter With Kansas? *offered an explanation that was
> soothing, on its face. The core thesis was that cultural issues replaced
> economics as the primary driver of decision-making in the heartland, and
> Republicans were winning by appeals to evangelical Christianity, racism,
> and other passions. This explanation was alluring to a lot of Democrats at
> the time, among other things because it absolved the party of blame for
> losing influence. After all, if people in Kansas were superstitious
> racists, what’s a K Street Democratic consultant to do? You can’t pander to
> Klansmen and idiots.
>
> Many Democrats agreed with Frank’s idea that modern Republicanism was a
> bait-and-switch: rail against busing or *Piss Christ, *then get ordinary
> voters to ignore “their own interests,” i.e. economics.
>
> Few, however, remembered the end of the book, which warned of a negative
> trajectory within the Democratic Party. While Republicans “were
> industriously fabricating their own class-based language of the right” and
> “made their populist appeal to blue-collar voters,” Democrats were “giving
> those same voters—their traditional base—the big brush-off.”
>
> This warning — that becoming the party of “affluent, white-collar
> professionals who are liberal on social issues” would ultimately backfire —
> proved prophetic, not that it did Frank any good. As he continued to issue
> this same warning with books like *Listen, Liberal
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJwlkc9qwzAMxp-mvjX4b-McfNhl7LDD3iDIsdqaOXawFUr29HNbEBKIT9LHTwsQ3ko93FYasWea6djQZXy0hERY2d6wzjE4MSmjpnFkwekgrLEstvlaEVeIyVHdkW27T3EBiiW_JriW7O40mnARXsJ4ARyDsT5crRUjn6Q1Sk7vs7CHiHlBV3I6XntZcneirZ3Ux0l-9ng8HgOs8FfysJS1N75jI8zn7-ixQjp_wbZhxnD-gUrH-QfLlrDLwtaTkIYLYYUSLDrJpeBKcSmN1mIQwyiDtHYC4wWHoIyeggetrhq9noS5njRfb3Jou28Ey-_zPqtuhXpgin_gke6QA9ZWsura25PJS9SRzL2ue450zJjBJwxvWvSG_uI337rx2p8RZiAnLmIUWk-yGxnfeDpOpY25aG5ZdxFKn8qOIHof_wETAJZ9>
> — *which came out during the 2016 presidential cycle and predicted with
> hideous accuracy what was to come — he found himself less and less in
> demand as a green room invite or guest editorialist.
>
> Nobody in the commercial press wanted to hear that ditching the Democrats’
> historical blue-collar coalition formed during the F.D.R. years had been a
> bad idea. Big media companies now wanted voices who made railing against
> Trump their expertise.
>
> It wasn’t that Frank liked Trump, he just didn’t find saying the obvious
> interesting. “I mean, kicking Donald Trump?” he says. “Yeah, the guy’s
> stupid, but making fun of stupid people, that’s not a challenge.” For the
> same reason, Frank notes, he never wrote about censorship before, because
> being for free speech for a liberal was such a “no-brainer” that it never
> even occurred to him.
>
> The type of liberalism Frank knew growing up, and for which he was such a
> prominent symbol in the Bush years (when “*libruls*” were commodities
> hated as fervently as terrorists in some circles), would never have
> entertained censorship as a serious solution to anything.
>
> What happened? Why has American liberalism gone through such a sea change
> on this issue? I asked Tom about this, and about the *Guardian *piece
> that sparked the backlash:
>
> *This is an excerpt from today’s subscriber-only post. To read the entire
> article and get full access to the archives, you can subscribe for $5 a
> month or $50 a year.*
>
> Subscribe now
> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVUl2PojAU_TXytoZ-iTzwMKtjFrNonDWuPpHSXrACxcBlFH_9Fp1MsknTpKf349x7jpIIRdMO0bXp0BuvFIcrRBZuXQWI0Hp9B21qdERCJlgYBJ6OuCZzMfdMl-YtQC1NFWHbg3fts8ooiaaxzwyfU-8caSXFXOdMaSG4IowEmfBp4Iea67nOxKut7LUBqyBqbDU863pVdEa8dhP2NqErd1CaLDPTrs86lKqcqqZ26PhUrclgwlbYlGAnbAnDmih6GI60KuNLc9_uE5I8SrYZbkb-Xfkjtrm8s2S_87f7-PF7sa7g15vZXt5psi9Z8jiJ5JJ0cV091BDPYvuTnIx_T5a7ITY3o9jBuBrmRM_VieKnPu5Mvpvi7M-hPPL7Fe99gJjmD9mv15-z4FIlZhHnHwtWXD8ujG_KCZ31WKc1aNPXI-Nxi19g1_StcuMsv0f7cTO6APz6V41FsOgCGBdixn0nRUR9SnzGfEoF52RKpgHVdD4PpciILzUTPNSZ5CznkPGQiHzC_bqg_23Ta6NatgNU5iEzwLO0GtqusczFFiPBZ5BT2VGo694aHFKwMqtAvwyALx89h0kLsNA6f-lUYkRmJCCch9QRCV6KO4d883csdOOybPQS-R_Bz-E3>
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> <https://email.mg2.substack.com/c/eJxVUk2Pm0AM_TXh1mi--DpwWGWbLGkhShWV7F7QMOOQSWCgw9CU_PoOSXtYybIly35-tp_gFurOTEnfDdabXWmnHhINt6EBa8F44wCmVDLBMfVpHIaeTJjEkR95aihPBqDlqkmsGcHrx6pRglvV6UcHYsQ7J1KefD8mmLGTjDghEatEDJHvVygIJZDnWD5KBVpA0ulmeuB6TXK2th8W9GVB1s4sV1WllsNYDZaL61J0rcvyXjn_Gzs3A7nwYPTFABczkwVd2-4KLr7CtMWC_JyOpLmml-7P7pDh7H6l-XRTYhPf5TruP1ZpkN33OD-8o-y1HlK9bd6LHPEiHl2PYj25puqmeLFGM0Z--Uqzwx7tDun9-2rbC5qpndreZJHa7PCCMpU6jBy_qzT4hKXRMl8VvDWFqDdvP65tPX1U3TnUU_Cmj7-O-UZcUvStPg5in90WJBhtWw7daAS4Vf4f4V--BanGdl5x3t1TCUEEI0oRIT5jeImXIZEkimLuVxhxSX0Wy4ozemJQsRj7pwVDbU0-HdczScvNBI268wrsmWsJZug0dbX1POdR5J5eutiOWtmpBM2rBuRTD_YpqwensgYNxslNltwmOMChE0RMHJHwKQAnGMp8P2Ao8hwL2bkunTx__hfYqOVK>
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