[Sundaycommunity] Thoughts
Arthur Blomme
art at integralshift.ca
Sun Aug 8 11:01:04 PDT 2021
Hi Cathy
I like your thinking on this topic.
The mystery of the church has been a favorite subject of reflection for
me. At the council of Nicea, the institutional church as we know it was
specifically modeled after the structure of the Holy Roman Empire. This
is a very top down hierarchical model that contradicts the previous
models outlined in the epistles and gospels. I have tried to resolve
this contradiction in two ways.
At first I re-imagined Emanuel Kant's distinction between the visible
and invisible church. The corrupt visible institutional church contains
within it the organizational support structures that allow us to, in
Kant's case, uphold the moral law. I see the invisible church as the
organic structure through which we act in the world as the one body of
Christ. It is our imp[licit organizing as people of love united in the
spirit.
Secondly, When I was in Peru I learned how liberation theology attempts
to resolve the contradiction. Gutierez makes the distinction between
the church of the rich and the church of the poor. The church of the
rich provides us with an ideology that legitimizes the status quo
hierarchy of power. At the council of Nicea the Empire switched from
being the beast in the book of Revelation to the friend and ally of the
institutional church. After Nicea the main role of the church was to
govern and control the beliefs into a single system that maintained the
stability of the ruling elite. Yet within that system, the church of
the poor exists advancing the causes of genuine social justice, truth
and love. One of its main role is to liberate our thinking so that we
are not controlled by the top down ideology of the rich.
Today I think that the institutional church is no longer relevant as the
upholder of the ideology of the rich. It no longer has the influence it
once had over the minds of the masses. I concur with Ivan Ilych ( _The
Medical Nemesis_,1976). The new authority of belief control is the
technocratic medical hierarchy. Currently, our beliefs are being
controlled from the top down through censorship and the strong faith we,
in the west, have for our technocratic medical system. The only message
allowed in the media is that our only salvation is vaccination. This is
a tightly scripted and unified message dictated by the WHO and big
Pharma that we hear over and over again. Former ethics researcher at the
W.H.O., Astrid Stuckelburger, PhD raises an alarm about the lack of
debate on the pronouncements and top down messaging made by WHO
concerning ethics and science.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4wUK87otKU&pp=sAQA> it is thought
control that Constantine could only dream of.
Our struggle must go on. We of the invisible church of poor must
continue to organize as the body of Christ. Pope Francis says that we
must move away from our technocratic ideology where "men" control and
dominate nature. We must become one with nature. This is a very radical
shift in the current behavior of our species. We must change our hearts.
Be Well
Art Bomme
On 8/07/21 2:22 p.m., Catherine Cavanagh via Sundaycommunity wrote:
> Thank you all for your supportive and insightful responses. I really
> hear what you're saying and appreciate it so much. The theologies of
> inclusion are pretty much all written -, it's simply structural,
> systemic sin that is once again getting in the Church's way. If we
> don't fix the structure, I expect we will hear more horrors.
>
> My question is, if I stay and don't try to fix the structure, am I
> complicit? If someone is being oppressed or excluded in my house and
> I I know it but say and do nothing to stop it, am I again complicit?
> And if the person who is being oppressed and excluded is me, am I
> enabling that by staying? How many other women globally might be
> harmed because they and the men in their community have bought the
> message that men make decisions and women don't speak unless they're
> given permission? By legitimating these hierarchies and these forced
> silences, how many other people might suffer like our indigenous
> peoples or our abused children? And most importantly, how to we
> effect change? I have been outspoken about the need for change for
> years but how slow is too slow? These are some of the things on my mind.
>
> Thank you for listening to me again!
> Peace,
> Cathy
>
> Peace,
> Cathy
>
> On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 3:49 PM H. Burns via Sundaycommunity
> <sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca
> <mailto:sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca>> wrote:
>
> Thank you so much for this.
> For those of us who resonate with all of this, and for whom the
> RCC is ‘not’ our ‘mother tongue’, as applies to several of us from
> the early days of the community, additional challenges present
> themselves.
>
> Much to reflect upon.
>
> Helena
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 6, 2021, at 10:34 PM, Catherin Cavanagh via
>> Sundaycommunity <sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca
>> <mailto:sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Brenda! A very interesting read by someone who is always
>> worth listening to. It doesn’t quite answer all the concerns
>> that have bothered me for decades though, let alone the ones the
>> last few months have thrust to the fore.
>>
>> When he says there’s nowhere else to go, I can’t say I agree. I
>> mean there are in fact other churches where people like me
>> (women)aren’t banned from positions or barred from preaching in
>> the Sunday gatherings. There are churches that paid the money
>> that the TRC prescribed without complaint or prevarication.
>> There are churches where apologies were issued from their highest
>> levels without any quibbling about who exactly should apologize.
>> The fact that no other church is perfect isn’t a sufficient
>> reason to stay in a church that has failed to deal with its own
>> sins and continuously teaches things we know are damaging to
>> whole swathes of people. It’s like telling someone to stay in an
>> abusive relationship because, you know, nobody’s perfect.
>>
>> I’ve been lucky enough to find this community and that’s keeping
>> me here (thank you!!) but I’m really not at peace with the RCC
>> (more so than usual that is). Here’s where I am: I think it’s
>> okay to stay but I don’t think it’s okay to stay without loudly,
>> persistently and unapologetically calling on the Church to
>> change. I mean really loudly. Indigenous people had no say in
>> the operation or existence of residential schools. Women have
>> had no say in the theologies and restrictions applied to them.
>> LGBTQ people same thing. So why do we always only apply our
>> fabulous social Justice principles to issues outside the church
>> and not inside? We have a church that is openly and
>> unapologetically sexist. As the largest religious institution in
>> the world it legitimates sexism. But ho hum right for most
>> Catholics? Pass the host and check off being Catholic for the
>> week. Communities like this one we are in are so very rare on a
>> global scale. The Church teaches that the Eucharist is
>> fundamental but does not always remember that oppressed are the
>> Eucharist.
>>
>> I imagine I’m not the only one for whom this latest round of
>> horrors is perhaps maybe the last straw. I’ve been inspired by
>> people who follow Christ and live the spirit in the world. I’ve
>> been inspired by our church. I’ve been inspired by many of you.
>> The Catholic Church is in fact my ‘mother tongue’ and I don’t
>> want to leave. But if the church is our home then there’s
>> something rotten in the walls. We Catholics have to stop thinking
>> we can ignore it by pointing out that good thing we once did.
>> Either we provoke change or we (or I, to speak just for myself)
>> really do have to leave as a gesture to the Vatican and Church
>> rulers that we do not consent to all the sin that has been a
>> persistent part of RC church structure, teaching, and practice
>> for generations. We teach the world through our actions after all.
>>
>> Rolheiser points out the great good the Church has also offered
>> the world, but refusing restitution, reconciliation and
>> reformation (around decision-making, power sharing, gender
>> issues, etc) completely undermines the good. I’m struggling to
>> remain convinced that I still want to be part of that. But this
>> community, including our priests and so many of you who are an
>> inspiration to me stand against that and keep me here for now.
>>
>> One last thing. I don’t think any part of the Trinity cares what
>> Church I belong to. This is entirely a human problem.
>>
>> I’ve ranted here and I’m tempted to delete it all. I think I’ll
>> send it though and just thank you all for listening to my
>> frustrations. You are in fact the face of goodness in the church
>> and I’m grateful.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Cathy C
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Aug 6, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Mr. Gillis via Sundaycommunity
>>> <sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca
>>> <mailto:sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you Brenda, a fantastic reminder in this age of cynicism!
>>> We too are all complicit in sin. All we have to do is look at
>>> the climate emergency. Once again a deep call to humility and
>>> metanoia!
>>>
>>> Peace
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 2:14 PM Dave Snelgrove via
>>> Sundaycommunity <sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca
>>> <mailto:sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca>> wrote:
>>>
>>> A terrific read!! Worth re-reading. Thank you, all
>>> responsible. Rosemary Gray-Snelgrove
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 8:30 AM Brenda Holtkamp via
>>> Sundaycommunity <sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca
>>> <mailto:sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca>> wrote:
>>>
>>> An interesting read….
>>>
>>> W H Y S T A Y I N T H E C H U R C H ?
>>> J U L Y 1 2 , 2 0 2 1 - Author - R O N R O L H E I S E R
>>> , OMI
>>> Several weeks ago after giving a lecture at a religious
>>> conference, the first question from the audience was
>>> this one: How can you continue to stay in a church that
>>> played such a pivotal part in setting up and maintaining
>>> residential schools for the indigenous people of Canada?
>>> How can you stay in a church that did that?
>>> The question is legitimate and important. Both in its
>>> history and in its present, the church has enough sin to
>>> legitimize the question. The list of sins done in the
>>> name of the church is long: the Inquisition, its support
>>> for slavery, its role in colonialism, its link to
>>> racism, its role in thwarting women’s rights, and its
>>> endless historical and present compromises with white
>>> supremacy, big money, and political power. Its critics
>>> are sometimes excessive and unbalanced, but, for the
>>> most part, the church is guilty as charged.
>>> However, this guilt isn’t unique to the church. The same
>>> charges might be leveled against any of the countries in
>>> which we live. How can we stay in a country that has a
>>> history of racism, slavery, colonialism, genocide of some
>>> of its indigenous peoples, radical inequality between
>>> its rich and its poor, one that is callous to desperate
>>> refugees on its borders, and one within which millions
>>> of people hate each other? Isn’t it being rather selective
>>> morally to say that I am ashamed to be a Catholic (or a
>>> Christian) when the nations we live in share the same
>>> history and the same sins?
>>> Still, since the church is supposed to be leaven for a
>>> society and not just a mirror of it, the question is
>>> valid. Why stay in the church? There are good apologetic
>>> answers on this, but, at the end of the day, for each of
>>> us, the answer has to be a personal one. Why do I stay
>>> in the church?
>>> First, because the church is my mother tongue. It gave
>>> me the faith, taught me about God, gave me God’s word,
>>> taught me to pray, gave me the sacraments, showed me
>>> what virtue looks like, and put me in contact with some
>>> living saints. Moreover, despite all its shortcomings,
>>> it was for me authentic enough, altruistic enough, and
>>> pure enough to have the moral authority to ask me to
>>> entrust my soul to it, a trust I’ve not given any other
>>> communal
>>> entity. I’m very comfortable worshipping with other
>>> religions and sharing soul with non-believers, but in
>>> the church in which I was raised, I recognize home, my
>>> mother tongue.
>>> Second, the church’s history is not univocal. I
>>> recognize its sins and openly acknowledge them, but
>>> that’s far from its full reality. The church is also the
>>> church of martyrs, of saints, of infinite generosity,
>>> and of millions of
>>> women and men with big, noble hearts who are my moral
>>> exemplars. I stand in the darkness of its sins; but I
>>> also stand in the light of its grace, of all the good
>>> things it has done in history.
>>> Finally, and most important, I stay in the church
>>> because the church is all we’ve got! There’s no other
>>> place to go. I identify with the ambivalent feeling that
>>> rushed through Peter when, just after hearing Jesus say
>>> something
>>> which had everyone else walk away from him, Peter was
>>> asked, “do you want to walk away too?” and he (speaking
>>> for all the disciples) replied: “We’d like to, but we
>>> have no place else to go. Besides we recognize that,
>>> despite everything, you still have the words of
>>> everlasting life.”
>>> In essence, Peter is saying, “Jesus, we don’t get you,
>>> and what we get we often don’t like. But we know we’re
>>> better off not getting it with you than going any place
>>> else. Dark moments notwithstanding, you’re all we’ve got!”
>>> The church is all we’ve got! Where else can we go?
>>> Behind the expression, I am spiritual, but not religious
>>> (however sincerely uttered) lies either an invincible
>>> failure or a culpable reluctance to deal with the
>>> necessity of
>>> religious community, to deal with what Dorothy Day
>>> called “the asceticism of church life”. To say, I cannot
>>> or will not deal with an impure religious community is
>>> an escape, a self-serving exit, which at the end of the
>>> day is not very helpful, not least for the person saying
>>> it. Why? Because for compassion to be effective it needs
>>> to be collective, given the truth that what we dream
>>> alone remains a dream but what we dream with others can
>>> become a reality. I cannot see anything outside the
>>> church that can save this world.
>>> There is no pure church anywhere for us to join, just as
>>> there is no pure country anywhere for us in which to
>>> live. This church, for all its checkered history and
>>> compromised present, is all we have. We need to own its
>>> faults
>>> since they are our faults. Its history is our history;
>>> its sin, our sin; and its family, our family – the only
>>> lasting family we’ve got.
>>>
>>>
>>> D
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