[Sundaycommunity] Thoughts

[Patricia Smiley]

This was an interesting article but I am afraid I can't relate to it.  I
was not raised in the Catholic Church - I chose to become a Catholic in the
late 70s when it seemed the musty doors were opening wide.  (BTW, I was
baptized and raised in the United Church.  I am not a convert, I don't like
that.)  I loved the mass and loved some aspects of the institutional church
and that is what it has always been for me - an institution.  I do
recognize at this point in my life much of the corruption of the Church and
have never had problems with looking at it that way.  I don't often refer
to myself as a Catholic.  I am not going to defend the behaviour in any
way.  I have belonged to this community for almost 30 years and it has
given me inspiration and good grounding for living out my Christian faith,
which is very gospel-oriented.  I have looked up various churches in my new
home of Hamilton.  When I can't join by Zoom I think I will find my way to
an Anglican church.  My sponsor and dear old friend has found a home in the
Sophia community in New Jersey.  He regularly sends me their liturgies and
a copy of the homily.  It is impressive how much work these people do to
pull it all together.

My personal opinion of the RCC is that it is falling apart.  People aren't
in the pews anymore.  I wish I had the energy to jump up and down with the
Canadian bishops and tell them that they should launch an investigation
into the residential schools they managed and find out who these children
were, where they came from, how did they die . . . I would prefer to use my
energy to insist that the government has a lot of responsibility in this
and should take their part.

I think I'm saying that in a way I left the Catholic church a long time
ago.  But I do believe it's important to have a community and there have
been so many times this amazing community has proved to me that God's love
is right there for me.

Peace to all, Pat

*Patricia Smiley*

*email:  smileypatricia76 at gmail.com <smileypatricia76 at gmail.com>*

*mobile:  647-517-1599*




On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 2:01 PM Arthur Blomme via Sundaycommunity <
sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca> wrote:

> Hi Cathy
>
> I like your thinking on this topic.
>
> The mystery of the church has been a favorite subject of reflection for
> me.  At the council of Nicea, the institutional church as we know it was
> specifically modeled after the structure of the Holy Roman Empire.  This is
> a very top down hierarchical model that contradicts the previous models
> outlined in the epistles and gospels.   I have tried to resolve this
> contradiction  in two ways.
>
> At first I re-imagined Emanuel Kant's distinction between the visible and
> invisible church.  The corrupt visible institutional church contains within
> it the organizational support structures that allow us to, in Kant's case,
> uphold the moral law.  I see the invisible church as the organic structure
> through which we act in the world as the one body of Christ.  It is our
> imp[licit organizing as people of love united in the spirit.
>
> Secondly, When I was in Peru I learned how liberation theology attempts to
> resolve the contradiction.   Gutierez makes the distinction between the
> church of the rich and the church of the poor.  The church of the rich
> provides us with an ideology that legitimizes the status quo hierarchy of
> power.  At the council of Nicea the Empire switched from being the beast in
> the book of Revelation to the friend and ally of the institutional church.
> After Nicea the main role of the church was to govern and control the
> beliefs into a single system that maintained the stability of the ruling
> elite.   Yet within that system, the church of the poor exists advancing
> the causes of genuine social justice, truth and love.  One of its main role
> is to liberate our thinking so that we are not controlled by the top down
> ideology of the rich.
>
> Today I think that the institutional church is no longer relevant as the
> upholder of the ideology of the rich.  It no longer has the influence it
> once had over the minds of the masses.  I concur with Ivan Ilych ( *The
> Medical Nemesis*,1976).  The new authority of belief control is the
> technocratic medical hierarchy.  Currently,  our beliefs are being
> controlled from the top down through censorship and the strong faith we, in
> the west, have for our technocratic medical system.  The only message
> allowed in the media is that our only salvation is vaccination.  This is a
> tightly scripted and unified message dictated by the WHO and big Pharma
> that we hear over and over again.  Former ethics researcher at the
> W.H.O., Astrid Stuckelburger, PhD raises an alarm about the lack of debate
> on the pronouncements and top down messaging made by WHO concerning ethics
> and science. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4wUK87otKU&pp=sAQA> it is
> thought control that Constantine could only dream of.
>
> Our struggle must go on. We of the invisible church of poor must continue
> to organize as the body of Christ.  Pope Francis says that we must move
> away  from our technocratic ideology where "men" control and dominate
> nature.  We must become one with nature.  This is a very radical shift in
> the current behavior of our species. We must change our hearts.
>
> Be Well
>
> Art Bomme
>
>
> On 8/07/21 2:22 p.m., Catherine Cavanagh via Sundaycommunity wrote:
>
> Thank you all for your supportive and insightful responses.  I really hear
> what you're saying and appreciate it so much.  The theologies of inclusion
> are pretty much all written -, it's simply structural, systemic sin that is
> once again getting in the Church's way.  If we don't fix the structure, I
> expect we will hear more horrors.
>
> My question is, if I stay and don't try to fix the structure, am I
> complicit?  If someone is being oppressed or excluded in my house and I I
> know it but say and do nothing to stop it, am I again complicit?  And if
> the person who is being oppressed and excluded is me, am I enabling that by
> staying?  How many other women globally might be harmed because they and
> the men in their community have bought the message that men make decisions
> and women don't speak unless they're given permission?  By legitimating
> these hierarchies and these forced silences, how many other people might
> suffer like our indigenous peoples or our abused children?  And most
> importantly, how to we effect change?  I have been outspoken about the need
> for change for years but how slow is too slow? These are some of the things
> on my mind.
>
> Thank you for listening to me again!
> Peace,
> Cathy
>
> Peace,
> Cathy
>
> On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 3:49 PM H. Burns via Sundaycommunity <
> sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca> wrote:
>
>> Thank you so much for this.
>> For those of us who resonate with all of this, and for whom the RCC is
>> ‘not’ our ‘mother tongue’, as applies to several of us from the early days
>> of the community, additional challenges present themselves.
>>
>> Much to reflect upon.
>>
>> Helena
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 6, 2021, at 10:34 PM, Catherin Cavanagh via Sundaycommunity <
>> sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Brenda!  A very interesting read by someone who is always worth
>> listening to.  It doesn’t quite answer all the concerns that have bothered
>> me for decades though, let alone the ones the last few months have thrust
>> to the fore.
>>
>> When he says there’s nowhere else to go, I can’t say I agree.  I mean
>> there are in fact other churches where people like me (women)aren’t banned
>> from positions or barred from preaching in the Sunday gatherings.  There
>> are churches that paid the money that the TRC prescribed without complaint
>> or prevarication.  There are churches where apologies were issued from
>> their highest levels without any quibbling about who exactly should
>> apologize.  The fact that no other church is perfect isn’t a sufficient
>> reason to stay in a church that has failed to deal with its own sins and
>> continuously teaches things we know are damaging to whole swathes of
>> people.  It’s like telling someone to stay in an abusive relationship
>> because, you know, nobody’s perfect.
>>
>> I’ve been lucky enough to find this community and that’s keeping me here
>> (thank you!!) but I’m really not at peace with the RCC (more so than usual
>> that is). Here’s where I am:  I think it’s okay to stay but I don’t think
>> it’s okay to stay without loudly, persistently and unapologetically calling
>> on the Church to change.  I mean really loudly.  Indigenous people had no
>> say in the operation or existence of residential schools.  Women have had
>> no say in the theologies and restrictions applied to them.  LGBTQ people
>> same thing.  So why do we always only apply our fabulous social Justice
>> principles to issues outside the church and not inside?  We have a church
>> that is openly and unapologetically sexist.  As the largest religious
>> institution in the world it legitimates sexism.  But ho hum right for most
>> Catholics?  Pass the host and check off being Catholic for the week.
>> Communities like this one we are in are so very rare on a global scale.
>> The Church teaches that the Eucharist is fundamental but does not always
>> remember that oppressed are the Eucharist.
>>
>> I imagine I’m not the only one for whom this latest round of horrors is
>> perhaps maybe the last straw.  I’ve been inspired by people who follow
>> Christ and live the spirit in the world.  I’ve been inspired by our
>> church.  I’ve been inspired by many of you.  The Catholic Church is in fact
>> my ‘mother tongue’ and I don’t want to leave. But if the church is our home
>> then there’s something rotten in the walls. We Catholics have to stop
>> thinking we can ignore it by pointing out that good thing we once did.
>> Either we provoke change or we (or I, to speak just for myself) really do
>> have to leave as a gesture to the Vatican and Church rulers that we do not
>> consent to all the sin that has been a persistent part of RC church
>> structure, teaching, and practice for generations. We teach the world
>> through our actions after all.
>>
>> Rolheiser points out the great good the Church has also offered the
>> world, but refusing restitution, reconciliation and reformation (around
>> decision-making, power sharing, gender issues, etc) completely undermines
>> the good.  I’m struggling to remain convinced that I still want to be part
>> of that.  But this community, including our priests and so many of you who
>> are an inspiration to me stand against that and keep me here for now.
>>
>> One last thing.  I don’t think any part of the Trinity cares what Church
>> I belong to.  This is entirely a human problem.
>>
>> I’ve ranted here and I’m tempted to delete it all.  I think I’ll send it
>> though and just thank you all for listening to my frustrations.  You are in
>> fact the face of goodness in the church and I’m grateful.
>>
>> Peace,
>> Cathy C
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 6, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Mr. Gillis via Sundaycommunity <
>> sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Thank you Brenda, a fantastic reminder in this age of cynicism!  We too
>> are all complicit in sin. All we have to do is look at the climate
>> emergency.  Once again a deep call to humility and metanoia!
>>
>> Peace
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 2:14 PM Dave Snelgrove via Sundaycommunity <
>> sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> A terrific read!!  Worth re-reading.  Thank you, all responsible.
>>> Rosemary Gray-Snelgrove
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 8:30 AM Brenda Holtkamp via Sundaycommunity <
>>> sundaycommunity at lists.integralshift.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> An interesting read….
>>>>
>>>> W H Y  S T A Y  I N  T H E  C H U R C H ?
>>>> J U L Y 1 2 , 2 0 2 1 - Author - R O N R O L H E I S E R , OMI
>>>> Several weeks ago after giving a lecture at a religious conference, the
>>>> first question from the audience was this one: How can you continue to stay
>>>> in a church that played such a pivotal part in setting up and maintaining
>>>> residential schools for the indigenous people of Canada? How can you
>>>> stay in a church that did that?
>>>> The question is legitimate and important. Both in its history and in
>>>> its present, the church has enough sin to legitimize the question. The list
>>>> of sins done in the name of the church is long: the Inquisition, its
>>>> support for slavery, its role in colonialism, its link to racism, its role
>>>> in thwarting women’s rights, and its endless historical and present
>>>> compromises with white supremacy, big money, and political power. Its
>>>> critics are sometimes excessive and unbalanced, but, for the most part, the
>>>> church is guilty as charged.
>>>> However, this guilt isn’t unique to the church. The same charges might
>>>> be leveled against any of the countries in which we live. How can we stay
>>>> in a country that has a history of racism, slavery, colonialism, genocide
>>>> of some
>>>> of its indigenous peoples, radical inequality between its rich and its
>>>> poor, one that is callous to desperate refugees on its borders, and one
>>>> within which millions of people hate each other? Isn’t it being rather
>>>> selective
>>>> morally to say that I am ashamed to be a Catholic (or a Christian) when
>>>> the nations we live in share the same history and the same sins?
>>>> Still, since the church is supposed to be leaven for a society and not
>>>> just a mirror of it, the question is valid. Why stay in the church? There
>>>> are good apologetic answers on this, but, at the end of the day, for each
>>>> of us, the answer has to be a personal one. Why do I stay in the church?
>>>> First, because the church is my mother tongue. It gave me the faith,
>>>> taught me about God, gave me God’s word, taught me to pray, gave me the
>>>> sacraments, showed me what virtue looks like, and put me in contact with
>>>> some
>>>> living saints. Moreover, despite all its shortcomings, it was for me
>>>> authentic enough, altruistic enough, and pure enough to have the moral
>>>> authority to ask me to entrust my soul to it, a trust I’ve not given any
>>>> other communal
>>>> entity. I’m very comfortable worshipping with other religions and
>>>> sharing soul with non-believers, but in the church in which I was raised, I
>>>> recognize home, my mother tongue.
>>>> Second, the church’s history is not univocal. I recognize its sins and
>>>> openly acknowledge them, but that’s far from its full reality. The church
>>>> is also the church of martyrs, of saints, of infinite generosity, and of
>>>> millions of
>>>> women and men with big, noble hearts who are my moral exemplars.  I
>>>> stand in the darkness of its sins; but I also stand in the light of its
>>>> grace, of all the good things it has done in history.
>>>> Finally, and most important, I stay in the church because the church is
>>>> all we’ve got! There’s no other place to go. I identify with the ambivalent
>>>> feeling that rushed through Peter when, just after hearing Jesus say
>>>> something
>>>> which had everyone else walk away from him, Peter was asked, “do you
>>>> want to walk away too?” and he (speaking for all the disciples) replied:
>>>> “We’d like to, but we have no place else to go. Besides we recognize that,
>>>> despite everything, you still have the words of everlasting life.”
>>>> In essence, Peter is saying, “Jesus, we don’t get you, and what we get
>>>> we often don’t like. But we know we’re better off not getting it with you
>>>> than going any place else. Dark moments notwithstanding, you’re all we’ve
>>>> got!”
>>>> The church is all we’ve got! Where else can we go?  Behind the
>>>> expression, I am spiritual, but not religious (however sincerely uttered)
>>>> lies either an invincible failure or a culpable reluctance to deal with the
>>>> necessity of
>>>> religious community, to deal with what Dorothy Day called “the
>>>> asceticism of church life”. To say, I cannot or will not deal with an
>>>> impure religious community is an escape, a self-serving exit, which at the
>>>> end of the day is not very helpful, not least for the person saying it.
>>>> Why? Because for compassion to be effective it needs to be collective,
>>>> given the truth that what we dream alone remains a dream but what we dream
>>>> with others can
>>>> become a reality. I cannot see anything outside the church that can
>>>> save this world.
>>>> There is no pure church anywhere for us to join, just as there is no
>>>> pure country anywhere for us in which to live. This church, for all its
>>>> checkered history and compromised present, is all we have. We need to own
>>>> its faults
>>>> since they are our faults. Its history is our history; its sin, our
>>>> sin; and its family, our family – the only lasting family we’ve got.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> D
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